Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Hey all. I searched but couldn't find a post about this.

I figure that any firearms for this situation would have to meet a few requirements: they must be easy to shoot accurately, must have cheap readily available ammo, and must not involve a lot of maintenance.

Here is what I was thinking so far. Please comment and critique, or make suggestions.

Rifle: Ruger 10/22 (cheap ammo, good for hunting small game) or a Mini-14.

Handgun: either a rimfire .22 (same ammo as rifle?) or something like a Springfield XD or Glock (9mm or 45ACP?).

Shotgun: double barrel 12 gauge

I don't want to break the bank here, either! Thanks.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

wait......I don't have my popcorn ready......don't ya'll start in without me !

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Great for home defense.
The second pic is a frame from a mpeg movie I made of shooting a rock.
12,000 foot-pounds is a lot of energy.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Hey. I asked for advice, not comic relief. I'm new to guns in general, so cut me some slack.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

The best, I'm told, is something that uses common ammunition, especially what the military uses.

12 Gauge shotgun
.38 cal handgun
7.62x39 rifle
9mm handgun
.22 rifle

Those are some suggestions and I have probably overlooked some. I am not a firearms expert, but the line of reasoning rings true with me.

I would suggest a .357 magnum revolver. It can fire both .357 and .38's. In the SHTF scenario, ammo will be scarce. Don't buy some weapon that requires ordering ammo from Romania, etc.

When rummaging through abandoned houses looking for ammo, or buying it from the local street thug for silver, you will probably find the common ammo. Perhaps, the underfed, underpaid remnants of the military personnel will sell you stolen ammo from the local fort. That or you could stock up on ammo like crazy now. You will still probably die prematurely or run out of ammo before you die of old age.

Good luck.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

.22 Long Rifle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22LR

7.62 x 39 mm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x39

.308 Winchester AKA 7.62 � 51 mm NATO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308

9mm Parabellum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9mm_Parabellum

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Ok....slack cut......the popcorn comment was because you're gonna get every opinion known to man on this subject.

FIRST:

Understand guns are tools, so it depends on what you intend to do. You don't use a sledgehammer to drive carpet tack, nor do you use a pair of vicegrips to torque head bolts on an engine.....get my point ?

So, YOU must decide....WHAT is this particular tool going to be use FOR.

A Ruger 10/22, for example, is an excellent gun to plink with or hunt small game.....But you're NOT gonna reach out and touch a deer at 200 yds with one.....and shooting a man with one, unless you get a head shot, or multiple hits, is merely going to piss him off and likely get you killed before he ever bleeds out.....

Same with your choice of pistols.

Shotguns ? Get a pump.....Rem 870 or a Mossberg 500 IMHO......take out the hunting plug and you've got 5-6 rounds right out of the box. 2 round shotguns are worthless in a 3 round gunfight.

So, now come back and tell us WHAT you intend to do with these evil things....ahahahahaa

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

1st bout of gun craze

18.5 inch mossberg shotgun (primary defence weapon)
yugo sks 59 (turn cover into concealment)
Pair of Glock 22 and 27 .40 $500-$600 each (better kills than 9 mm)
22 rimfire rifle (kill em rabbits)

2nd bour of gun craze

Keltec .38 pistol (smallest and lightest)
Keltec .40 or 9mm carbine $350 (takes glock magasines)
Glock in 9 mm handgun (if you have to scavenge for ammo)

if you want to read thousands of posts like these on this go to ar-15, thehighroad or such.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

rifle - small game hunting / fun
pistol - home protection / mobile protection
shotgun - home protection / possibly hunting

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

thanks guys. keep em coming.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I'm with Andy, depends on what you're wanting it to do.

That said, a 12 gauge 870 is about as dependable and versatile as anything. Buckshot will take out a man or deer very well out to 50 yards, and a little less effectively out to 100. Birdshot can put all kinds of birdees on the table.

If you're getting a self defense rifle, get a military one. The 10/22 or Nini 14 will melt down if you really get after it.

For pistols, I must admit the glock 17 (9mm) is prolly the best, although I hate it. Tons of those things floating around, along with the ammo.

Remember, two is one, one is none. Try to figure out what you can do to minimize the # of mouths to feed. IE, two M14's are better than an M14 and an AK. Swap out parts, ammo, mags, whatever. If you break a firing pin, shoot out a barell, whatever, you still have an almost complete parts kit.

It's a deep wormhole into which you're peering.:tongue:

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

OK....as per your specs

Rifle...10/22
Pistol......Glock in 9mm or 45 CAP
Shotgun....870 or 500 as I said before


Just one of many opinions...popcorn anyone ?

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Very, VERY new. Look down to the bottom of the page:

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/t...line-copy.html

http://www.buildanark.net/survival_stories.html (Gold is Money had a thread on this yesterday, too)

Tappan suggests the .45 1911, .22 and a .308 (basically) with a shotgun. There are many permutations, but this seems to be what everyone runs across.

Why:

1911 appears to be the most reliable, field-serviceable, heavy caliber handgun. As FerFal mentions (another thread on Argentina's 2001 collapse) a revolver might be great for many things, but not so good for defense of more than 5 humans. People love the 9mm but the Marine joke goes "Never go into battle with a weapon whose first digit is less than '4'. Although heated, most experts seem to gravitate to the .45. Maybe the Tommy Gun (a .45 machine gun) is an example: it was issued for the Pacific in WWII NOT because the rifles/pistols they had didn't kill Japanese; they did. The problem was that the Japanese, although shot, still reached the Serviceman before dying. You do not want this. They needed a caliber that didn't kill them--a .22 will kill you and has killed more people than any other--but to make them LIE DOWN. It is argued that the 9mm does not do this. No one knows why as the ballistics are the same.

.22 is all that is needed almost all the time. Target pistol or rifle. There are breakdown versions as they are issued to pilots and paratroopers as they will kill anything, even deer, but the bullets are very light, cheap, changable, accurate. The 10-22 is popular and has many mods. The target pistols appear not to have existed in the super-mod form at Tappan's time (1980). These are what paratroopers etc, use as backup. Henry backpacking rifle is another. Cheap, ugly, and breaks down into a tiny form, as in "From Russia With Love" I believe. There is another .22/.410 shotgun survival weapon, also ugly, all steel, and issued to pilots.

In .38/.45 there are pistol/revolver crossovers, like the lever-action cowboy guns, simple and proven in the American West. However, cartridges are different as you can pack more bang into a rifle, so to some extent you're not consolidating ammunition after all.

Unified, common calibers are a good idea, except that each gun has a different purpose. That's why to get a .40 or .45 and not a .50, for example. That's also why to get a .308 as a long-range rifle. Tappan says get a battle weapon as it upholds sustained fire. .308 is NATO, unlike the 30-06, although nearly identical. This is well and good, and no doubt a far better weapon, however the AK/SK is also a .30 caliber (=7.62x39) with light powder and is proven worldwide as the most reliable, abuse-taking design. Both guns and ammunition are cheap and common. It has far less power, but it's not always you need to carry twice the bullet by weight to shoot through both sides of an auto.

Shotguns Tappan doesn't talk about much. Remmington 870, Mossberg ? are common. 12ga is most common, but unnecessary power for most things. You can get lighter cartriges for your 12, but not man-stopping punch from a .410. In Africa, it was felt that if someone was close enough to be a danger, you wanted a shotgun to stop them cold. Even with a vest you'd be thrown by sheer force. If they were outside shotgun range, for the most part they weren't a danger. You say what about snipers, but low-lifes are scammers who want to get something for nothing, and if they're a sniper, nothing is going to help you all that much in your daily routine: you're still going to garden, wash the dishes at the window, and unlock your door with one hand.

Again, see FerFal saying that although TSHHTF, and he had his FAL scoped and loaded <b>at the shooting range</b> in Argentina, he STILL had to go down and confront the gent that was jacking his car. Face to face. Knowing he was probably armed and violent. I believe his quote was "Get a grip, 12-year-old internet jocks, you will NOT be shooting anyone at 300m. We call those people psychopaths and lock them up." Harsh, but he was there when he couldn't leave the house without a vest. Social upheaval is NOT like battle. It's much, much worse. Although the police will not help you, they WILL still lock you up for shooting people and shake you down for your goods. Worst of both worlds. In such case, a battered old shotgun says, "I was an poor honest man defending my life" to police and jury much better than a fully tactical SS riot gun with lights and can opener on the side. Since both work, it might save you money for something more practical too, like a vest or a passport.

Did I miss anything here? Everything I say is sure to be fully disputed on any hunting/survival board, but common sense will tell you this is the jist. Read what you can, probably local laws and availability will tell you more than anything. Other than that, remember, it's a precision tool, each made for a very specific purpose. Like any other tool, you need to identify your specific need for it, if any. If you're thinking you're going to shoot another human being, you'd better sit down and have a long chat with yourself about what REALLY happens in such a case, to you, to them, and to the law, and decide if this is REALLY what you want and can stand behind 100%, or are willing to serve 30 years for. Where things fell apart, like Lebanon or Argentina (Germany or Russia or Zimbabwe) people often look back and say, "What was I thinking staying when the writing was on the wall? I could have been a grill cook in Edmonton, Alberta instead and saved my own life."

A passport is way cheaper than legal fees. Think about what you're doing and what it means.

TS

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

see Guns, Guns, Guns. Last year I went for a mossberg 590 and springfield XD, with the help of that thread.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

My favs

H&K 91 in 7.62x54

Marlin Camp9 9mm $250 nib and will accept S&W 59 series mags. Thats a 25 rd. I have in filled with Federal Hydra-Shoks

Ruger has pistol cal rifles in 9mm and .45 and the accept they're pistol mags

Any is better than none. Get whats comfortable to shoot.

.22 cal thats shoots shorts and longs
.22 mag
9 mm
.357 mag is a good choice
.45 acp

I don't like .44 mag or larger in a handgun, but only because I have not found any that fit my hands comfortably.

Lots of interesting stuff for the 12 guage. I have a double bbl, a semi- auto and a single long bbl (46') goose gun.

As for rifles, I'm not a fan of the AK or the AR. AK's are durable but not accurate enough for combat and the AR is a fine squirrel gun but underpowered for combat.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

What Andy said in his last post...those 3 weapon types and calibers are very common.
Glocks are nice because of their available high capacity magazines.

the wonder world of military rifles and calibers is a can of worms that you should open slowly

since you're new to guns I would like to suggest you find a gun safety course and get some range time with an instructor
Good luck

Andy, please pass the salt

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Good call from Dave, thinking outside the box.

The Auto-carbines in pistol calibers and other less-known but nice ones.

Keep talking...

TS

Glock...anyone have opinion on Kimber? Also has high-capacity.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

All these guys have some great suggestions, but they missed the most importants gun....

One you know how to use well. You can have all the guns in the world, but if you don't know how to use them and well, then they won't make a bit of differrence.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

My personal choices to get the most "bang" for your buck would be a Mossberg 500a (7 + 1 cap) 18.5" barrel for home defense, +/- $200 and an extra mod choke 24" barrel for hunting, +/- $100. A good reliable 22lr (marlin model 60) for plinking/small game, $125 or less, and a .308 (Browning Mark II BAR), +/- $800, high powered rifle for larger game and longer range defense if you think things will come to that. All ammo for these are and should remain fairly common.
Personal favorite handgun is the S&W model 19 .357 Ma , 6" barrel, +/- $300. Sweet trigger break and you can run over it with a cement truck and it'll still shoot.

Tons of other options and opinions. Really depends on what you consider TSHTF and what you'll be needing them for.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Guns are pretty easy to use in general. Load, cock, aim, shoot, clean. I haven't shot a rifle in my life until a couple of months ago. I hit a human sized target (torso) most of the time from 100 feet or so. I was surprised about how little to no kick an SKS has. Cleaning can be a little tricky, but you can find info on the web or ask a friend who owns one. The first thing you need to do is buy one and its ammo. Even six year olds can shoot people with a gun, that's why they say to lock them up. Pinpoint accuracy can come later and really isn't necessary unless you are training to become a sniper. Sure I'd love to be a marksman, but I am content on being a gun owner. For now, all I require is shooting an intruder in my house at a very short distance. I also think I could hit small game if I were hungry enough. For now, I'm a vegetarian and will stay one until it's the animal or me (starvation).

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

thanks for the link! how do you like the XD so far? did you get 9mm or .45?

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Caliber does not matter much except to "experts" and those who have impressive but utterly meaningless credentials. Any of the military or law enforcement handgun cartridges from the .38 special, .357 magnum, 9x18 Makarov, 9x19 Nato, .45ACP, 7.62x25 Tokarev, .40sw, .357 SIG, 10mm and on and on will all work. What matters is shot placement and penetration, put the rounds on target and make sure they'll dig deep enough to hit said target. Something that really does matter for anyone who's on their own and really for anyone is capacity. More rounds on tap means more covering fire, more potential dead enemies, more chances to save your life. Something to consider if you ever have to carry your own load, 1 round of .45acp weighs more than 1 round of 5.56x45 which is a rifle cartridge. Do you really want to waste weight carrying pistol rounds when rifles, even ones I don't like, are much more effective? 1911's were/are good guns but in truth are not bastions of reliability or accuracy until reworked and are then seldom both at the same time. A Glock 17 or Glock 19 is light and fires effective and lightweight 9x19mm while being very accurate and very reliable with no apologies needed and as an added bonus they have one of if not the very best magazines of any commonly available handgun in terms of reliability, durability and capacity. This frees up weight for other gear that really matters, like water and rifle ammo. There are other good pistols out there, but take a look at the Glock 17 and 19, they are made for you.


When it comes to longarms, rifles and shotguns, you need to determine what your realistic needs are. Where I live it is either built up with brush or built up with buildings, there aren't many places I can see more than 100 or 200 yards simply because of intervening terrain. I don't need accuracy at very long ranges but I do need to be able to punch through light cover. 7.62x39 makes more sense down here as 5.56x45 veers off target more when shooting through this kind of stuff whereas the heavier 7.62x39 bullets plough straight on through. Heavier rifles like the .308/7.62x51 or .30-06 don't make sense because their added range and penetration are not practically useful for me and the weight of the ammo limits the number of rounds I can carry.

If you live in an area where there isn't open stretches to make shots past 200 yards or so, get a 5.56x45 or 7.62x39 rifle. Good examples of these are the AK family but do yourself a favor and get a good AK like a Vepr, Arsenal, Vector Arms or Global Trades and forego the bargain basement WASR series.

If you live in an area that will enable and require long range shots then I would advise to consider overlooking the popular .308 and evaluating the .30-06, 7.62x54r and 8mm Mauser because it is much easier to find AP ammo for these calibers. If you're going to carry a big stick you may as well enjoy the full benefit of their penetration. You could look at the AK-derived Saiga series of semiauto rifles, the M1 Garand, and the military surplus Mosin Nagants and Mauser rifles.

Both the Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500/590 are great shotguns. Shotguns are great indoors and pretty good in the street, but I have reservations about relying on them as a general purpose defensive longarm due to their limited capacity, high cost of ammo, weight and lower rate of fire. A folding stocked rifle or carbine is just about as good for most purposes and a lot more handy and versatile.

As far as what I personally keep for my own purposes, well, my stuff is all customized so you can't get exactly what I have off the shelf but here goes

Pistol: CZ-75B in 9x19
it's a basically solid service grade handgun I've modified for controlability and use with hard recoiling +P ammo yielding near .357mag levels of performance only with 26 rounds on tap thanks to my super spiffy extra capacity factory magazines. That said I wish I had the CZ SP-01 or 85 Combat for various practical and esthetic reasons.

Rifle: AK-47 in 7.62x39
ok, it's really a heavily modified MAK-90 which is a tweaked Chinese version. Mine is immune to corrosion and more accurate than normal and I loaded up on 8m2 effect ammo for under 8 cents around. I use the Bulgarian waffle magazines as they are half a pound lighter than the steel mags and just as good under most circumstances but I retain a healthy stash of steel mags bought at the ridiculously low price of under $3 each. The point of the AK isn't that it is a bargain basement deal, the point of the AK is that it is a rock solid individual weapon that will take anything you can throw at it and still reliably punish your enemies. If the same kit costs a little more to buy now than it did then, so be it. If you want to save money buy an SKS instead.

Other Rifle: Mosin Nagant in 7.62x54r
This is the one I use for longer range shots should I have need and also for cracking things that have a tougher shell. There are so many wonderful specialty loads for this cartridge if you know where to look. Cheap, ugly and effective. My relatives have taken these rifles into combat against communist invaders and won before, these guns can do the job again. The AK defends my farm and my vehicle, if I were to ever have to go guerilla I wouldn't be engaging in an antipersonell fight and the Mosin would be my weapon of choice.

Shotgun: We don't need no stinking shotguns!
Honestly I haven't had a role for one till recently, the AK or the CZ filled that niche. I'll probably build out an 870 as I like the steel recievers, otherwise a Saiga 12 because you have to love the power of a detachable box magazine fed 12 gauge. :D

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I got the 9, came with 2 15 round clips.

Shot off several hundred rounds with it last year at the local range, but the target (paper on plywood, circle about the size of a basketball on it) was so far away (30- 40 yards maybe?), hitting inside the circle was a practically random occurrence. And without binoculars, you can't see where you hit anyways, until the break where you go inspect the target. But from shot to shot, you couldn't tell if you were improving or not.

As for the XD, I didn't have any problems with it, and really have nothing to compare it to, since it's my first and only handgun. If you're sociable at the range, others will trade guns with you and you can shoot theirs. I shot one other 9mm, I don't remember the make anymore though. Felt about the same as the XD.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I recently asked a similar question about handguns.

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...light=handguns

Ended up getting a Glock 17 because of durability, reliability, and availibility of ammo. Also 45ACP is a good man stopper but you need to ask yourself which is better in a SHTF scenario 15-17 9mm or 7-8 45ACP. Although there are a few high cap 45's like the XD 45 ACP. 13 rounds I think.

Here is a torture test thread on glocks. You won't believe some of the stuff done to the poor gun.

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...light=handguns

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

buff01,

Here is a link to GunsAmerica. This particular page shows Mossbergs in what are called 'combo' setups which are one short barrel and one hunting barrel with both a regular buttstock and a pistol grip. Prices range from just above $200 to about $450.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/search.cg...2080&state=All

Here is a pix of my 'pimped out' Mossy 500 still in progress :

http://goldismoney.info/forums/attac...1&d=1155757496


Here are my AK's.

http://goldismoney.info/forums/attac...5&d=1140539110

Backed up with a Rem 700 in .308 ignore the M14 behind the bolt gun and that UGLY guy in the background.

http://goldismoney.info/forums/attac...6&d=1140539425


Handguns -

One of my inexpensive 2" Rossi's -

http://goldismoney.info/forums/attac...1&d=1155757896

Article on Glocks :

Glock in .45 ACP

Firearms are a personal choice and they will do jobs they are NOT intended for. BUT it is the wise man who chooses his tools carefully.

BUT "Show me a man that only owns ONE gun and I'll show you a guy who knows how to use it" (an oldy but a good).

Regardless your choice, practice, practice, practice.

And for EVERY different caliber weapon you own, MINIMUM ammo stored SHOULD BE 1000 rounds (generally one case) that is not cracked opend until TSHTF. 2000/3000 rounds per caliber is better. And having spare parts is GREAT IDEA.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Also I second what Goddess said.(Wallew too) Make sure once you have your guns that you practice lots. Which is another reason why you want cheap, readily available ammo. Won't matter what you're shooting with if you can hit your target.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

You're on a budget so..
Remington 870 12 guage or double. A SxS double sawed to 18+" is handy, makes pumps seem long.
The Ruger 10/22 is good value.
AK47's are a good value. The SAR 1 is light, simple and cheap.
Get a "combat handgun" like a Sig 220 or 226 or a Glock 17 (but I prefer Sig)and then get a puny pocket pistol like a KelTec .32 for times when concealment is difficult.

357 magnums are good but I don't want to shoot one without hearing protection ever again. I'd rather have a tiny 5 shot .38 snubbie. They are easy to conceal.

The combat hangun will be the most expensive investment. All the rest I mentioned are in the 200-300 dollar range.

Then buy tons of ammo!

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Wallew -

I have the Glock 21 in 45 cal, and I got one Glock 17 9mm for my wife (the 45 was just too big and the recoil too much). I also have a Ladysmith for a backup and she can work that too.

For a shotgun I have two Winchesters 1300 Defenders, which I found were slightly lighter than the Remington (figured ligther for her and easier to hold in an extended sitatuion) and held more shots. I boguht them after reading numerous articles about the Remington, Mossberg and Winchester.........but I notice no one mentions that one.

Whats your take on it?

Ho

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Rereading this thread I realize I got entirely sidetracked. Everybody should have a .22lr rifle and handgun.

I've had mixed results with every semiauto .22lr handgun I've ever used except the Walther P22 which has always ran like a champ for me, just feed it high or hyper velocity ammo which is probably what you'll want to shoot and store anyway. CCI Stingers and Velocitors work great! Otherwise I'd tend to trust a .22lr revolver more nowadays since it eliminates any worry about failure to fires, failure to feeds and failure to ejects. I've got my eye on the Taurus Model 94 series which are double action and hold 9 rounds.

If I was looking at a scenario where I'd have to live out of a backpack or otherwise travel light for a long time I'd heavily consider getting a .22 magnum rifle and handgun combo. The ammo is neither particularly cheap nor expensive, common or rare, but it does pack a lot of whallop, weighs very little and takes up almost no space.


Another survival scenario for many people is going to be refugee/fugitive status. In this case you'll want firepower but you won't necessarily want anyone to know. The Kel-Tec Sub-2000 and compatible pistol of your choice are made to order for this kind of situation. You get a carbine that folds to just 16 inches in length that takes the same mags and ammo as your pistol, both very concealable weapons and the carbine will extend your effective range to at least 100 yards. With the right ammo you can gain one or two hundred feet per second in muzzle velocity out of the carbine over what you get out of the pistol, that means more power and accuracy.

Then there are force multipliers that you should consider investing in. These include a ballistic vest as well as possibly a helmet with ballistic visor. Pepper and smoke grenades are poor man's area of denial weapons and even pepperspray fogger units can be used to lay down a cloud that will keep badguys away from you. The high lumens tactical lights work, you don't walk around with the light on as that would give away your position but you can shine it in your opponent's eyes as you engage to deny him his sight. Better yet work with a buddy who does the blinding from cover while you engage from 90 degrees away, they'll never see it coming.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Can someone please explain why everyone always mentions a shotgun???

In a home defense situation with little or no warning, I am NOT grabbing a shotgun. I'm sorry, but I'm grabbing the .45 and my surefire flashlight which is in the drawer on my night-stand. A few .45 slugs (well-placed from practice) will stop any threat just as quickly as any shotgun blast.

As far as handguns go, I've learned that (imho) nothing is more reliable that german craftsmanship. I own Walther, Sig and HK. You get what you pay for. You want a reliable, inexpensive 9mm? Buy a mil-surplus walther P1. Only about $250.00 or so. (I picked one up a a recent gun show for $180. Though, they are going up in price fast...) That gun is smooth and accurate. You will truly enjoy it's buttery feel, if you can get over it's "nazi" looks.

Go mil-surplus on battle-rifle too. Romianian AK's can still be had for under $300. And a Yugo SKS for under $200. Pick up a copy of "shotgun news" and tons of other periodicals at any Barnes& Noble.

Go to any local gun shows, gun shops, pawn shops, etc...mill around, touch stuff and ask a lot of "newbie" questions. If they look at you like a "newbie" call them an asshole, tell them they just lost a sale, and go to the next place!

Most of all, have fun. But, be warned....firearms are addictive!!!!:D :D :D

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I can only tell you my thinking........yes, I have three handguns and I see your thinking - however, if TSHTF, I am thinking we could have gangs of people going house to house, many of whom would also have handguns (and god knows what else). Maybe its naive, but I am thinking a shotgun would be best to keep people back off the property, the handgun more for an individual trying to get into the house.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Awesome responses guys. Great links as well. Thanks.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

The main point I'd differ on in regards to the post above is never, ever go to a gun shop for advice on guns. If you ever happen to meet staff or owners at gunstores that know what they're talking about consider it a small miracle. Likewise if the first gun advice you hear is to buy a 1911 and an AR-15 consider the source extremely suspect. If they up the ante and start talking about how manly and lethal the .45 is, run. There is nothing to learn there. It is a great idea to go to a range and rent a lot of different guns and see what suits you.

Otherwise I completely agree that shotguns are generally overtouted as home defense weapons. The main thing they have going for them is on one hand very low penetration into your nieghbors house with an appropriate buckshot loading, on the other hand they have enormous penetration with a slug or sabot round. Otherwise a few well placed shots from a pistol will do anything a shotgun will do, assuming no armor and no cover.

I know somebody who has a Winchester Defender, it works well for him. I have heard some people say they have problems with their action bars but I have no first hand knowledge of this.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Forget 9 mm, go for 40 S&W at the least, 45 ACP better yet.

Just me but I want one rifle capable of hitting a paper plate at 600 to 1000 yards. That will definitely keep their heads down.

If you have the money, here is the best all around.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

He was just joshing you.

Thanks for starting this thread. Yours was a question I've been thinking of asking myself.

:thumbs up

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Very good choice!

I'd hate to be around when you're dishing out tough love ...

Well, speaking for myself it would be to take out the goons Hypertiger will be sending to bust into my shack to take me out - unless I have mis-read HT's cryptic communications, in which case I hope he will accept my sincerest apologies.

:cheerful:

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Agreed. That SOCOM is sweet.:D

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Sukhoi_Fan-- unfortunately, I am in CA (sucks, I know), and AKs are illegal here AFAIK. What would be the next best choice? I assume Mini-14s and SASs use the NATO cartridge, is that right? What other choice do I have? Move?

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

That would be an excellent choice!

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Believe me, I want to. But I'm not quite ready yet financially and for other reasons.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

The Socom with a ported 16" barrel isn't a long range weapon. It is a high capacity 308 with excellent multi-shot controllability and good handling properties. And the 308 has a BUNCH more punch than a 7.62x39. Yes, it's way too expensive for a newby but, like I said, it's the best in it's class. And it's class is the same as an AK.

I don't shoot 308 at very long range. I shoot 6.5x284 and a rapid twist 6 BRX. Both will launch very high BC bullets at over 3000 fps and both totally outclass the 308 at long range. I shoot disciplines where it is necessary to maintain sub-MOA (10 inches at 1000 yards).

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Anyone know if a Norinco SKS is decent quality? There is one for cheap at a gun shop where I live.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I agree the 223 doesn't have a bunch of take down power. I would hope that if you were ever to find your self in the position of pulling a trigger on a human being, that things are well into the desparate range. In this situation, you aren't looking to get their attention, you are looking to put them down.

The 30 caliber AK round has proved to be far more effective than the 223. The 308 round is more effective yet.

Ruger makes a Mini-30 version of the mini-14 that is chambered in the AK round. Perhaps it is legal in the peoples republic of ca.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I went the 1 pistol, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun route.

Shotgun is the Remington Marine Magnum, you can get the same cheaper without the nickel plating.

Rifle is the Colt Sportster Competition HBAR .223

Pistol is the Glock 21 .45

On a budget get either the remington 870 18" barrel (black synthetic) or the mossberg. I still prefer a glock over anything else in a hand gun, and in a rifle it depends on what you are trying to kill.

Here's a site on shotguns for home defense:
http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_defense.htm

I agree with the other person on shotguns. I have my glock 21 within reach and the shotgun is locked up at night. I think the shotgun and the 45 are good for not going into your neighbors house. The shotgun is really intimidating if people see it and hear it cocked.

Good luck on your choices and get lots of mags and ammo, you wil have fun.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Yep, but it tumbles like a mother f'er and rips you apart. I think the idea was to create as many wounded as possible so others would have to help them.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Decent quality is a relative term, it is made in China and will continue to shoot as long as ammo is fed. Watch out feeding it ammo made with corrosive primers and not cleaning afterward.

Cleaning your weapon is a basic part of having it.

Picture of match weapons being cleaned below---

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Imho,

The Glock is the best choice for handguns, they will take a large amount of abuse and have a minimum of moving parts. Less moving parts, less stuff to break. I also have a Colt frontier scout in .22 and Ruger GP in .357

The shotgun becouse of the neat specialty rounds that are available. Sabot, flechette, flamethrower, oc (pepper gas), buckshot, deerslugs, be creative! Suprise the bad guy! My Remington 1100 autoloader is set up for OC first shot, 00 buck second and third shot, then on the 4th you get a flamethrower. There are also a whole slew of less than lethal stuff out there (beanbag rounds, rubber balls etc.).

Like good old andy said, a firearm is like any other tool and you don't use a hammer to change your sparkplugs.

While my H&K is a great battle rifle, it would suck for home defense.

That being said, as far as cost of these tools are concerned, if a fella can afford all of this gold and silver shurely he can afford the best tools. While he who has the gold makes the rules, he who has the weapons will end up with the gold.

When I started racing when I was 15, I went to the racing store to pick out a helmet. The sign on the wall at Simpson's place said if you have a $10 head, go get a $10 helmet. The "just as good as" stuff will cost you more in the long run. Only this ain't just bucks, it's life itself.

On reloading, learn it. I've found that launching bullets is only half the fun.
Remember that our opponents in this deal have factories set up to spew fresh rounds by the bushell. The more handloaders we have the better we will do. Convoy raiding ain't going to cut it. And I'm not trusting any gook shit from wallyworld.

Remember what Mr. Myagi said, Either do or do not. Middle of road, get squished.


DBD

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Master Ho,
Your choice of Glock 17 and a Lady Smith as backup pistols is an excellent idea. I just let my wife pick her own. Took her to several shows, then we went to one of the local shops when we were living in Portland, Or. She handled them all. And I bought her a Taurus 4" comped .357 . SHE is flat deadly with it.

Now about your shotgun choice. For the SAME REASON that you went with a smaller caliber for handgun choices for your wife, consider a 20 gauge instead of a 12 gauge. With #4 field shot, at close range, it is just as deadly as the 12 ga is. And the recoil is a lot less. I have recommended this setup for many a woman who has come back and thanked me. Hey, even YOU might be able to get that second shot on target a hair quicker with a 20 gauge than a 12 gauge.

buff01,
WHAT PART of Kali are you living in. Because it CAN make a difference, surprisingly enough. At least it used to. I've lived there twice. Both times in the Bay area.

And perhaps instead of a 'battle rifle' you might be surprised at how easily you can handle a lever action rifle (.44 spl/mag comes to mind). Teamed with the proper pistol in the same caliber, you have a fairly decent protection setup. Add a shotgun and you got all your bases covered.

If you can find an issue of the Shotgun News dated July 31st, 2006 there is an excellent article about the 6.8mm round, it's development, etc. This particular copy has a copy of a red-white-blue AR-15 for lefties on the cover. Also on the cover it should say "Stag's Southpaw 6.8" .

IT MIGHT be the July 20th, 2006 issue. I have the one dated 7/13/06 but have seen a cover dated 7/20/06. Same issue, same cover. Don't know why. ANYWAY, it's a keeper for sure, as it gives TONS of info, including the BC (ballistic coefficient) of the 6.8 and why it is preferred to the 6.5, which looks good on paper, but not so much in actual field work.

ONE of these days, the full story will come out about this particular rifle, ammo and it's development. A good friend of mine was involved. He says that he's pretty sure that SOME TIME in the future there will be an indepth article that explains a LOT more that what you will read here. BUT this has been the best article TO DATE. It gives out more info than any other article written in the past two years.

---

AND FOR EVERYONE,
Having 'walked the line' of the dark side as a motorcyclist, the LAST THING a BG wants to hear is the RACK of a pump shotgun putting one in the chamber. It literally puts the fear of god in them. They NEVER intentionally choose a victim that they think will be armed. And with most handgun choices there will be no noise but the boom of your first shot.

HOWEVER, if you fear someone IS breaking into your home, that CLACK, CLACK of the first round being chambered into a shotgun will generally cause most crooks to turn tail and look for easier pickin's. IF NOT, don't miss, cause the perp is probably REALLY DOPED UP and doesn't know jack. OR WORSE, thinks he's bullet proof.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I like this answer the best so far - I would modify that slightly to say - whatever guns you will take to the range and shoot periodically -

You would be surprised how many people have various firearms that they have great confidence in, but have never put many rounds thru and can't find the safety or reload in the dark.


Having said that - the 22 rifle is the poachers best friend.

Personally, I favor the 45 or a least a .40 cal in a handgun.
BTW, did you know the army has solicited maunfacturers as applicants for new model .45 cal firearms for testing, for their special forces? rumours are that if that goes well, may then reissue to other forces. Sorry the 9mm just doesn't have the stopping power.

I concur with some other posters -get 12 ga pump or auto shotgun that will take a magazine extension.

Rifles - everybody has their pet - particularly in terms of lower recoil - .224 or 7.62 x39 -

however, the .308 is truly king - hard to fault, slightly higher recoil - excellent stopping power, range, etc.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Thanks for the knowledge.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

i dont have any gun.

but i do have a surefire flashlight! nice item.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Thankyou for the response - I think we're sort of locked in with the 12 gauge at this point tho - got two - and I have lots of #4 shot - with some #8 and a lot of #00 too (Plus slome slugs - not exactly sure what but I guess if we need to take out someone's car engine! :eek: )

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE WINCHESTER DEFENDER AS A SHOTGUN COMPARED TO THE REMINGTON AND MOSSBERG??

Excellent point and another reason we got the shotguns!!

Again - thanks for the great responses!

The best firearm when ever you need it?
 

What ever caliber you choose, let it be such that you will never have any problems with ammo supply. Don't choose a special caliber for a minority of specialists.

Also remember: The best firearm is the one that you carry when you need it.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

http://dillonprecision.com/default.cfm?

would be a good place to start -

I do pretty well rolling my own with one of the 1050 machines

http://dillonprecision.com/template/...&cookieClean=1


I can't recall haven't seen good quality, inexpensive ammo in any serious caliber - The only good quality ammo I have seen isn't cheap.

IMHO, _no one_ should use full metal jacketed surplus stuff.

If you want to, go for it.

we all have our preferences, these are mine - you're welcome to yours

And you're welcome to the last say on it_grin_

Me, I'm going for more popcorn and would rather watch with mild interest than be a participant_ bigger grin_

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Best firearms for when TSHTF? The one you don't have to use.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Okay, guys. Based on your input, I've pretty much decided on the following:

Rifle for hunting/target/defense: SKS. Mainly due to its service record, wide availability of ammo, decent caliber, legality, and inexpensive price. If I can get my hands on some 10 round cartridges, I will. Possibly pick up a 10/22 for small game.

Handgun for defense/multipurpose: Glock 9mm for portability , magazine capacity, and dependability. Maybe later I might trade up to a Springfield XD or Glock .45

Shotgun: TBD


..... now I guess I'll see what my local shop has in stock. ....

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I said that was what I was doing - not suggesting it, there is a difference.


I personally don't care for Full Metal Jacket and would rather use other options.

FMJ is in use because of international agreements to the effect it is deemed "more humane" . That is why hollow point ammo is not used by the military -

There is much better expansion, ballistic coefficient and accuracy readily available from other options, IMHO.

I really prefer _accurate ammo_ and would rather buy it or roll my own than attempt to try various batches seeking accurate surplus that once/if you can find it - is still full metal jacket.

if someone else shoots it, or prefers it - suits me. However, I personally do not.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I would however, quite happily use any and all accurate surplus ammo in a match, and the cheaper the better.

Although, I would not use it for survival purposes/general usage other than on paper/targets.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

The one in your hand!

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Is breakage of the rear slide rail still a problem for Glocks?

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Sarcasm is so underrated. :proud:

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I aviod these post because there are about a million of them on here hiding in the history. Without reading everything here, I saw no mention of stainless steel. Some peeps don't like it because It's shiney and "makes you a target" but I'd rather have a firearm that doesn't need to be babied too much because cleaning supplies may be hard to come by if TSHTF. With the exception of military arms, everything I buy I drop the extra cash for stainless. Most of it is brushed or bead blasted so it's not like you are using a signal mirror for the bad guys to see. Barrel wear is under contention, but my personal opinion is that stainless is a better barrel metal than chrome moly.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Me too. At least for handguns and hunting rifles. There aren't many choices in shotguns, either.
There is a company in Arizona I think that puts an excellent flat black hi-tech finish on stainless but shipping firearms is too much hassle for me. I have thought about camo painting some of my firearms, but can't bring myself to squirt paint on an expensive rifle and scope.
Anyone have any experiences with getting the brightnes out of stainless one way or another? I want something I can do myself or get done here in central Texas.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

The SKS is usually what I recommend to people because of 2 things, price and reliability.

But the AK variants work just as well they are super reliable but have been going up in price. Stay away from the AK74 which shoots the 5.45x39mm round and is a whole lot harder to find than 7.62X39

If you get an SKS, The first thing you will want to do, is get rid of that fixed magazine and replace it with a 30+ round detachable magazine.

Here's a very good sks site

http://www.sksman.com/

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Buff01, you made a fine choice, those are good weapons that will serve you well with no B.S. I've seen men trained on the SKS that can really rock those things using stripper clips. Since the clips are much lighter than magazines you can carry a lot of them and it is worth getting a vest made to carry them, they're cheap and commonly available.

6.8 is better than 6.5 in the field only because 6.8 is based on a patriotic American cartridge case, the 5.56. That's too bad because lethality is related to bullet design and a properly designed 6.5 bullet is more than lethal enough and the cartridge benefit from a tapered case, courtesy of the unpatriotic 7.62x39 parent case, which makes for more reliable extraction. 6.5 also feeds better out of 7.62x39 magazines than 6.8 feeds out of 5.56x45 magazines, which shows just how emmotional the decision to go with 6.8 really was since compatability with existing M-16 magazines has often been stated as a reason for its adoption. The various articles floating around talking about "real world" results are fluff pieces to get the fanboys onboard. In the real world a hit to your aorta or braincase by anything tough enough to punch through will put you down barring an act of God. Acts of God happen, I've seen amazing crud.

Pistols don't have stopping power, including the .45. Pistols have varying degrees of penetration, pressure, recoil, flash and bang. Everything else that is meaningful is shot placement and bullet design.

The 5.56x45 is good enough against unarmored targets that aren't behind cover, it's just that it isn't the greatest against cover or armor. Then again the .308 in non-AP loadings isn't much use against currently available rifle plates, either. Tumbling is not the strong suit of the 5.56x45 in terms of performance in a soft target, fragmentation is. Fragmentation with the 55gr military ball loadings hinges on having about 2700fps of velocity upon impact and it becomes more unreliable the slower the bullet it going. The problem is the 5.56x45 was designed for a 20" barrel and the military is now issuing stubby barreled M-4's left and right that are only making around 2700fps at the muzzle. From what I have heard they are also almost exclusively using the newer M855 steel penetrator ammo that doesn't have the lethality against soft targets the older 55gr stuff did. OTOH, there are newer, heavier 70gr+ loads that are being used by some, most special forces types, that perform much better from the short barrels. The 6.8 vs 6.5 issue was raised because they were looking for better performance out of short barrels. The M-16/AR-15 is a stupid platform to try to make a smaller weapon out of anyway since the location of the recoil spring in the buttstock makes attaching a folding stock impossible without redesigning the gas system which along with the 30rd magazine was always a problem with that family of weapons which at that point you may as well buy a better weapon and solve numerous problems simultaneously.

While 7.62x51 out of a 16" barrel is still faster and more powerful than 7.62x39 you've just taken a cartridge that was designed for hitting at long range and being fired out of a long barrel and cut its efficiency considerably. The result is a weapon that doesn't perform as well as its big brothers even though the ammo is still excessively heavy for the realized level of performance. You're also going to get considerable muzzle blast, though that can be cut with the right flash suppressor. Ammo is one of the heaviest components of your combat load, if you're not wearing armor it is the heaviest. Stubby barreled M-1A's may be best of class, but that class is showy safequeen/rangequeen/macho conversation piece, not practical combat weapon even though they are otherwise perfectly lethal like any other gun. FAL's handle better and are more maintainable anyway, especially since quality parts for the M-1A are drying up while there's plenty of quality parts for FAL's available, the FAL's generally cost less, too.

I've digressed considerably. Neither heavy 5.56 bullets nor short .308 barrels are nearly as good in a practical combat weapon as a true intermediate cartridge such as the 6.8 or 6.5 once you factor in all other related hassles. It is a bang for your buck equation.

The .308 is a good round but lethality stems from bullet design. 7.62x39 in the form of M43 Improved, 8m1 or 8m2 actually do more dammage against a soft target at 400 yards than .308 military ball does since the former tumble more readily and more aggressively. The difference is that it is easier to that target with most .308 platforms than most 7.62x39 platforms, assuming a point target. The bolt action CZ "carbines" in 7.62x39 however have shown themselves to be much more accurate with the same ammo than the AK or SKS alternatives.

Not that it really is important, but I did mention stainless firearms, sort of. My AK has been given a matte hardchrome plating treatment for corrosion proofing, and soon it will get a polycoat in a nice "tacticool" color like O.D. or black. A chrome lined bore offers most of the advantages of a stainless barrel, but some hardcore paperpunchers say that the chrome linings are never as even as a broach cut stainless barrel and therefore never quite as accurate. Just the same, a gun is only as good as its springs and neither stainlesss springs nor chromed springs hold up for long(the chrome eventually peels depending on severity of flexation). If you keep a spare set of springs packed in grease handy you're good to go with your stainless guns.

I'm a gunfag too, but I try not to confuse personal preference for gospel.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

for 6.8SPC and 6.5 Grendel, where can we find ammo? A couple places I found, they are sooooo expensive - a buck a round?
also, I only seem to find 6.8SPC from Brett, cost more than 2500$. Am I looking at the wrong place?
I was shifting between .223 and .308 and leaning toward .308 M1A platform.... but I do agree that the ammo are heavier and more expensive... what to do... got to hurry up

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

6.5 and 6.8 are for advanced shooters/gun enthusiasts. I'm right now laying the ground work for a completely custom AK chambered for 6.5 based off The Firing Line's side folder milled reciever. I'm making a rear sight block that has rails instead of a sight on it, all kinds of stuff, it will rock... but that isn't the point. The point is that if you want to shoot and store in bulk these calibers you have to roll your own. Handloading can make the costs more manageable, otherwise we have to sit around and wait for them to gain wider acceptance. It's sort of like the 10mm.

There are other options, too. There is no reason you have to settle on a common military caliber as long as you are supplying your own ammo. If you capture any enemy ammo you will also be capturing the weapon to shoot it anyway, or at the very least components to load your own. Take a look at DSA's FAL's in .243win or .260rem or rebarrel the gun of your choice. You're going to spend about as much on some manufacturer's idea of a spiffy spacegun anyway. Obviously reloading is where you save money with the .243 or .260, but you can get some nice softpoint factory loads for fifty cents a round with the .243.

I agree it's a sad state of affairs with few true intermediate cartridges available. If you don't want to rebarrel anything or go with a non-military cartridge I'd just take a hard look at your terrain. If you need to and can make shots at 400 or more yards, go with the .308. If you don't or can't go with a 20" barrel with the 5.56x45, or go with the 7.62x39. The 7.62x39 is the closest thing to a real intermediate cartridge that is common and out there right now, and you'll get better performance in every respect if you load your own. Guys who normally get 4moa with their AK can get that down to 2moa with their higher quality handloads, you can pick up speed and terminal effect in the process, too.

If you're not set up to get involved in the more advanced shooting enthusiast levels don't worry about any of this stuff and just use off the shelf weapons and ammo. The bottom line is that any of these guns will kill you deader than a doornail with cheap ammo and decent shot placement.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

here's a bonus for all the guys that posted helpful responses!

http://www.thefontman.com/leah_1.jpg

http://www.thefontman.com/leah_2.jpg

http://www.thefontman.com/leah_3.jpg

http://www.thefontman.com/leah_4.jpg

now go discharge your weapons :D

What do you think about this?
 

I tell you what I have in my mind:

A gun with these characteristics:

- 7.62 x 39 cartridge
- Short bullpup rifle
- Manual bolt action
- Stainless
- Light weight
- Magazine interchangeable with AK-47 magazines
- Reflex suppressor
- Red Dot Collimator sight

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

There's a company, I think TriStar Arms, selling newly made guns based on the No. 4Mk1 Enfield action that fires 7.62x39 from an AK magazine. It would be well suited as a base gun for a bullpup configuration. I think it even has scope rails already.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Here it is:
Australian International Arms M10A1

http://www.rusmilitary.com/images/aia_m10a1.jpg

Here is a review about it:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/aia_rifle.htm

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I could go for stainless barrels in a rifle or shotgun - and for barrels in a pistol.

Complete pistols in stainless have somewhat of a reputation for "galling".

For this reason, most competitors use hard chrome or other surface treatment, usually in a matte finish which tends to hold the oil.

Granted, most competition pistols are also far tighter than service pistols.

Short version - not sure I would want a whole pistol in stainless.

However, I have lusted for a 10/22 in stainless more than twice _grin_

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I was looking at these before but tristar doesn't have it on its website anymore. They are available up in canada but I think they are unimportable here because they are made in vietnam. I did a search for the company that makes them, but they don't have a website or anything. I did find this http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topi...OPIC_ID=175619 with some good info.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Not a big auto fan But I'll remember this if I buy another. The only one I have is a Taurus in a .40 and I don't like it. Sure it's a cheap gun and I'm certain better quality is more fun to shoot but I like my wheel guns.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

alright guys.........i finally got a big gun. It's been years coming but i've never found the right one at the right time.

chinese sks with synth folding butt stock.Bsquare scope mount with a rather large tasco. bayonet attached . Foot long or so banana clip (30 or more capacity??) $225 out the door...

.and thank god my nics check went through immediately.....that's a first. :rock: Every other gun purchase i've had to wait until the max. time expired before they'd give it to me.

off to the range tomorrow and we'll see if i got a good deal or not:coolbeer:

what's y'alls favorite 7.62x39 ammo supplier? any specials going on?

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Don't consider anything but a shotgun for self defense. Anything else will kill innocents down range when you miss. If it's for survival hunting a shotgun is great for birds, rabbits, etc.

20 gauge or 12 gauge? It's your choice. I'd go 20 gauge, but I do have both and about 1000 rounds for each. :redface:

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

:musicus: Yea, but nothing tenderizes the meat quite like a load of buckshot. I know, because shooting it tenderizes my shoulder!

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I need advice here...thoughts please....:smokin:


http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/admi.../ptr91kfm4.jpg PTR 91 KFM4 Paratrooper Carbine, .308 semi auto rifle but JLD Enterprises, features 16 inch Kurz carbine barrel with flash hider,new tactical front aluminum handguards with complete 3 rails for mounting optics, vertical pistol grips , bi pods etc.H&K navy style ploymer trigger group and M6 6 position tele stock.Ships with 20 round mag, owners info and rifle hard case.NEW for 2006

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Immediate thoughts without doing any research -

It appears to be a version of the Heckler and Koch - HK91, a civilian version of the G3 battle rifle that has an excellent reputation world wide.

The G3 of course can select full auto and be belt fed.

JLD enterprises, IIRC correctly has advertised in a number of IPSC competitor mags, and has put out some good rifles.

While I have not been keeping up, I would think that $1200 would be a very good price for any version of HK 91, that is in excellent condition.

These rifles use a delayed roller locking action that is known for it's ultra reliability - essentially they are inertia or recoil operated, with rollers in the bolt head that cause the bolt to rotate and then unlock rearward under recoil. The action is essentially the same design as the Benelli Shotgun, that is also known for ultra reliable function and long service.

These are great guns. I have fired another very similar version of the HK91 a number of times and loved it.

I personally would prefer one of these guns to the civilian version of the M14 that is marketed as the M1A. I believe that there are others out there that have looked carefully at them both, fired both of them and would make the same call.

The delayed roller locking action seems to slow down the recoil over a period of time and make these guns softer to your shoulder than say an M14 - Although, granted there were decades in between my firing of an M14 and firing the HK91

If it has the polygonal barrel rifling and probably does, those versions are known for accuracy, also. So accurate that I recall hearing that there were some agencies (European?) that actually usee/uses them as police sniper rifles - in a capacity similar to the long-term usage of the Remington 700A, as a police sniper rifle in the US. I haven't seen this documented, but was told this by one of the snipers on the local swat team, a long term friend.

Actually, this price is so good, I wonder might be unusual, and if there is some sort of problem.

If it is a used gun, the main concern would be condition of the barrel, and if there are any functioning problems.

IMHO, this does about all a man could want in that caliber, size and weight

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Note: all of my comments above are about versions of the HK91 - so you ascertain in which ways the rifle posted differs -

Visually, just looking at the picture - I do not see signifcant variations.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Thanks Au_Ag...I was wondering about the manufacturer. The price seems to be a good price. I think I want to trade up on my mini-14's. Thanks for a great thread...got me thinking more about the .308. I am looking for an affordable upgrade....let me rephrase that...best value. I don't mind spending money, but hate wasting it. Don't want to pay for a name unless it is truly worth it.

Any other suggestions.....? :smokin:

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Some thoughts on .308

I will not that virtually all SWAT teams use .308 for the sniper position. Many of their shots are under 400 yards.

They use the .308 because they can depend on it for a one shot kill/put-down, with proper shot placement. Something that can't be said for 5.56 (.223) or 7.62x39. Those firearms also are somewhat dependent on full auto, or 3 round bursts for effectiveness.

I cannot remember ever seeing a custom bolt action rifle built for 7.62 by 39.

I've sure seen them built in .308.

And while I don't own a 7.62 x 39, I certainly would own one if the proper opportunity presented itself, and have more than several times seriously considered a mini-14 - and do own an AR15.

Each caliber has it's purpose and usefullness. The originator of this thread was asking about a limited, one handgun, one rifle, one shotgun battery.

IMHO, if you're in the US( or other NATO country) and are only going to have one bigbore rifle - the .308 is the way to go.

Hard to beat the HK91 for that particular purpose.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Springfield SOCOM, but I think it is somewhat higher in price.

I suspect that the one you posted may be a situation where they are importing parts from Europe, assembling them here with enough US parts to meet the criteria for being manufactured here.

Quite possibly, they are getting a deal on surplus military parts and that is what enables them to meet this price point. If you look at the HK91's they are going for considerably more.

I just noticed that there are some others for sale that are being called HK91 clones. There is no more rocket science involved in this than in cloning an M16.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

There isn't a rifle out there that will function 100% under various forms of abuse. There also isn't a rifle made that doesn't have problems of some sort or another, including the AK47.

The perfect rifle/firearm/handgun for every situation doesn't exist.

The individual must weigh his priorities and make his choices. They are not the same for everyone. Obviously, Sukhoi_fan and I have different priorities.

Having said that, the FAL is an excellent rifle, I would love to have one, or two or three _grin_

I could go for this puppy

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976602620.htm

Sukhoi-fan - although we obviously differ on some firearm issues, I always read your posts with interest _grin_

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

The DS Arms SA-58 series of FAL's are built with upper recievers which are machined from drop forgings. The trick with DS Arms is the medium contour barrels are made with a slightly tighter than milspec chamber so every once in a while they can have extraction problems. I've never heard of this with their standard weight barrel. There are some Imbel gear logo reciever builds out there that are really nice too, but you have to know what you're looking at.

Odd note on the HK/PTR 91's; I knew a guy who had one and couldn't figure out why he couldn't get it to bumpfire until he realized it is essentially a recoil operated action. As far as the rollers go I would think that could be solved with a hardchrome plating treatment if you otherwise liked the platform.

The nice thing about most guns is even if they aren't quite perfect most flaws, real or percieved, can be corrected through some creative gunsmithing.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I was surfing GA off an on durng the afternoon, haven't kept up with those markets for some time, so was interested in prices and what was out there.

I believe I would probably give it a deal of thought before buying an HK91 parts clone. The one that I have fired and really liked was a commercial model with the polygonal rifling. I'm thinking a parts clone might be somewhat "iffy"

I do like the platform and believe in the platform - but would want to be sure what quality I would be getting, and not sure how you could do your due diligence properly on a unit like that without seeing it and hopefully firing it first.

If you could put one thru it's paces before purchase, I would say go for it, but that's hard to do when they're on the internet.

Sooo, you're moving in the right direction - don't see how you can go wrong with a .308 _grin_

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Great posts...let me see if I have this straight. First choice of serious battle weapons... SAR,HK,FAL all in .308...second AK 47 ( not made in china?), third .223 base AR15 etc....

I will do my research but leaning toward SAR..HK...308.

I have decided to go with the .40 in handguns. Are we splitting hairs between the Glock, HK, S&W? Is the Berreta or Ruger any good for battle?
:smokin:

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

does everyone agree on the same place to buy cheap ammo?

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I have a Bushmaster carbon 15 type 97s Carbine. its an ar15 knockoff and weighs about 5 lbs.

I like the AR15 cuz I can carry a lot of ammo. I need lots of ammo as with my short barrel, er, I mean the carbine's short barrel, I miss very fast.

More then shooting my carbine, I like to clean my gun and AR15's love to be cleaned. Yup. One hour of shooting (if it can handle an hour's shooting) means two hours of cleaning and I just love to clean my AR15...its very soothing.

A light carbine is easy to overcontrol but at least I can carry it from the car to the firing line without straining my back.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

anyone in here own a taser gun?
anyone in here ever use one on someone?

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Well, this thread is at 108 posts, with much of the discussion centered on rifles/best rifle caliber - might as well try for 200 _big grin_

There is as much personal preference for pistols and calibers as there are rifles, if not more _bigger grin_

Having said that - my preference for personal defense is .40 or .45 caliber unless you're talking concealed "hideout" gun. I notice that the SEALS and Delta Force also use the .45. In fact, there is a new "request for manufacturers to submit" models for testing in .45 for use by the US "special services"

Nothing wrong with the .40. It's primary benefit being able to fit more rounds into the magazine.

Glocks have an excellent reputation for reliability and accuracy. So do the Sigs.

Am unsure of Beretta offerings if any, that are larger than 9 mm.

To some extent handguns are/should be partly selected on how they fit your hand and personal preference for action type ( single or double ).

You really want a gun that "points" well for you. There is a noticeable amount of manufacturer attention to this area in recent years as polymer based frames have gained widespread acceptance in the marketplace.

No way to determine this, except to hold the gun in your hand - extend your arm with slightly flexed elbow and then point the gun at the target - then check with the sights and see how well you pointed - is it close to center mass?

Action type? generally - double action or single action. The Glock action functions to the shooter like a double action revolver - Some like this.

I frequently recommend Glocks to new shooters - was quite surprised to see one or two posters in another thread be critical of that recommendation. Honestly cannot remember their reasoning -

Glocks work. Alla time. Have the reputation for extreme reliability. Pretty good accuracy.Failures on Glocks (that are not due to improper reloads) are extremely low. The Glocks point a little high for many people.

Caveat - I am prejudiced on pistols due to a number of years as a competitor in USPSA/IPSC and my experiences and observations in hundreds of matches, hundreds of thousands of rounds fired by me, who knows how many fired by other competitors. However, I have not been an active competitor for years.

"practical" competition attempts to simulate "real life" situations. It somewhat does, or at least does so better than anything else readily available to a civilian shooter.

Glocks probably comprised 60% of the pistols in "limited" category with Colt design or Colt clones doing 96% of the rest of limited class and "Open" class. If a pistol will malfunction under "normal" circumstances, it's gonna do it when someone is shooting a stage.

The Sigs have been around a good while - Glocks probably have the largest market share of any manufacturer ( excluding the colt based guns)

I left the Colt 45 variations for last - because people love' em or hate em.

Colt/clone single stack and wide body variations have essentially been the design of choice for practical competition in open class for decades - there are a few pros shooting other things that the factory is paying them to shoot.

These are most commonly built today on widebody Strayer-Voight or STI - hybrid frames with steel colt-style rails -

The colt design takes effort, parts, costs and gunsmithing to be made reliable and accurate - However, once you do that - the guns will take the abuse piled on by many thousands of rounds.

I noticed the top Air Force competitor was shooting a sig in one of the newer "limited" type classes. Can't find the issue, tried to look up the model for you

There are a number of relatively new models that are quite interesting in design and execution - one being the Springfield XD

http://www.springfield-armory.com/pr...-service.shtml

The Springfield P9's, (CZ75 clones) point very well - my guess is the XD will point well for most people.

However, these guns have not been out long enough to establish a track record.

Reliability, accuracy, pointability -

Whatever you decide on - if possible, buy it with the type of sights you prefer - changing the sights later on will add more to the cost of the gun than if you just get what you want on it in the first place.

This is probably more than you wanted in a response _grin_

However, consider it an effort to point you in the right direction.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Au_Ag.... thank you very much....with deepest respect....:smokin:

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Why do I say Pointability?

Unless you're gonna shoot 5 or 10 thousand rounds a year - which actually everybody should if they want to hit what they're shooting at - unless you're going to practice a good bit, you are more likely to hit the target with a gun that is more natural to you. Also, you are more likely to do well under stress, IMHO.

Everybody that has a handgun should really put a 100 rounds a month thru it ( or some handgun)

If they don't, they are likely to be not perform well under stress, not only with the shooting characteristics, but the functional characteristics of the handgun.

Those who are fortunate enough to live in an area where there is a regular IPSC match, or IDPA match ought to consider shooting a match - it will either confirm that you are doing well and give you some practice shooting the match , or point out areas you need to work on.

Years ago, one of the more popular local practical matches had a bunch of regulars that would come shoot the match every month - was basically their practice for the month. They didn't belong to a range, had no place to shoot, and for $10 got their practice in under other than "bullseye" conditions.

Quite welcome _big grin_

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Au_Ag,
Very good advice. I bought .45ACP as well and found the recoil is quite small - maybe because I got a full size SS. I bought a Kimber, and like it. The next one should be a SIG - maybe.
For MBR, I am still trying to find out which one to buy. I am set on the .308 (72x51 NATO) caliber. I am trying to decide the DPMS AP4 or the SpringField M1A Scout. Being 16" barrel, how much loss I got from the DPMS AP4? How reliabe is it?
BTW, I may not pick PTR91 as I kind of do not like its look, and does not feel too well in my hands. not sure, maybe I should focus more on reliability and accuracy. It should be easier to carry and manuver as well in CQB.
thank you for your advice.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I have no direct knowledge of either of those, so hesitate to say.

I'm not sure if the platform can or will migrate to .308, but the new 556 Sig

http://www.sigarms.com/Products/Show...&productid=114

Takes standard AR/M16 mags

Looks really good for 5.56 - If they develop the platform in 7.62, I would probably become a buyer.

This design is gas-piston, instead direct gas vent (if that is the correct term) and reduces or eliminates the fouling common with M-1/clone designs.

These are pretty new and no track record - which doesn't bother me nearly as much in a long gun as it does in a hand gun.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Being a vet, I know the m 16 very well and can probably hit a target at 300 yards right outof bed half asleep.

So is the m16 the best weapon for me? Yes ,in the .223 caliber.

Under 100 yards Im probably just as acurate.

It comes down to using a caliber and rifle design for the job , then, know the weapon and train.

Then and only then You have the best !

I knew a retired sheriff , a friend, and he carried a 22 revolver derringer .

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Hey guys. I know I said I was going to get a SKS, but yesterday I went into the local gun shop and decided on a Ruger 10/22 carbine with a scope instead. I based this on the uses of the gun, and the cheapness/wide availability of ammo. For example 550 hollowpoint HV rounds for $10.50.

I still plan on getting a .45 handgun, or at least something with a lot more punch than a .22 ;) And if I ever move out of CA, I'll invest in a Kalashnikov. (and a silenced barrel for the .22!)

I can't wait to take delivery of my first gun.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Excellent related thread about Glocks

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...ighlight=Glock

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Ruger 10/22
Browning BAR .270 Winchester
Mossberg 590 18.5" 12ga.

Plus, thousands of rounds of ammo and reloading equipment.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

What's a good price for a pump 12ga shotgun? My local sporting goods store has the Winchester Defender for $260 after mail-in rebate. I believe it holds 9 rounds. Or is it worth it to spend more and get a mossberg?

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Not really a bargain. I saw some new Remington 870 Express 12 guage shotguns at a gun show a few days ago for $189

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

OK, thanks. I'll probably wait until I can go to a gun show.

Incidentally, how does the 10 day waiting period/background check work when you are buying guns at a show?

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

For what its worth - after asking a lot of gun-folks and doing some reading online - I picked up two of those at that price and right after I did, the price whent up quite a bit..........you might be able to get a Remington at a gun show - if not the Winchester is an excellent shotgun and a fair price.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

Chinese Ithacas, by any chance?

Waiting periods are the stupidest gun laws, or at least in the top 5. They vary from place to place but often if you have a concealed weapons permit you don't have to wait to take delivery of your firearm at a gunshow or elsewhere. Otherwise the dealer at the show will usually ship your gun to an FFL dealer in your location and you'll go to his store to pick up your gun when the time is up.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

I haven't been following this thread for a while, but I wanted to drop in a couple of thoughts:

The PTR 91 is an excellent rifle. PTR has produced a rifle that exceeds the original HK in both accuracy and reliability. I wouldn't hesitate to own one.

The DSA FAL is also a great gun. A friend ordered one direct a few months back for under 700 frns. Their website listed them for around 1000.

USGI M14 mags can be had for 20-25 bucks if you know where to look.:proud: There are quite a few different forged M14 recievers available, but they are pricey.

As far as ammo goes, check out ar 15 . com (not sure of the address as I'm not a poodle shooter) for a list of .223 prices, and 24 corps over at http://www.m-14forum.com/upload/ has a 7.62mm ammo thread which is updated weekly for the cheapest milsurp on the net.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

WTSHTF, I want 22LR. It's cheap, quiet, and effective against two-legged game.

Re: Best firearms for when TSHTF?
 

(My first post on this forum. I wrote it many
days ago. Just now got approved as a member.)


Many years ago, when I bought my "last" gun,
a 9mm pistol: I went to my local indoor
shootin range and said, "I wanna buy a 9mm
from you, but I don't know which one yet.
Let me shoot all the nines you have, say for
fifteen minutes each." They thought that was
a great idea, and let me shoot all they had, and
just charged the rental as if I had shot one gun
for several hours. Why not, no trouble for them,
they don't clean the guns after renting them out
anyway. And that was a good thing for me.

Because the seven or eight guns all were very dirty
(powder fouled,) they all jambed within a few
dozen shots except one, a S&W. The Glock
and Sig jambed the most, if I remember correctly.
The Smith pointed well, and felt "right" in my
hands. I was able to shoot it more accurately
than the others. That doesn't mean IT was more
accurate, it just means I could shoot it best.
I squeezed the trigger a hunnert times, that dirty
rental Smith never jambed, and neither has the
one I bought. Because it was to be a home defense
piece, I installed tritium sights, which a dozen
years later, are still glowing nicely. Later I installed
a one piece Hogue rubber handle which tightened
my groups significantly. I keep it in a pistol safe,
within reach of my side of our bed.
Several Sure Fire flashlights are on the dresser.
Long guns, and a few other sidearms are in
a big gun safe, but it takes a while to work the
combo. When something goes bump in the night,
I can get the Smith out of the handgun safe
inna heartbeat.
Oh, there's a lil Walther .22 in there too....
BTW Don't try to shoot the Walther
(my Walther anyway) television style, on it's
side, as it may fail to cycle.

dtnwn
:smokin: